Talk:Edita Gruberová

Untitled

Apropos of [1]: >99% of people born in a location are native speakers of the local language; normally we don't state this because self-evident. Why do we have to make it explicit in this case? -- Viajero 10:00, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Because in this case it is not clear what the "local language" is. There is a Hungarian speaking minority in Slovakia; the fact that Gruberova's mother is a member of that minority suggests that Gruberova's mother tongue is Hungarian. Aleph4 11:08, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Exactly. Juro 22:23, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

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BetacommandBot 05:12, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Ref Kesting

Strange! The reference Kesting does not work. I've added the wayback archives for all references. Grimes2 (talk) 13:38, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

Cause of death

Brug (Die Welt): "angeblich ein dummer Unfall im häuslichen Bereich" (allegedly a stupid accident at home). Sad. Grimes2 (talk) 14:33, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Edita Gruberová/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: The Most Comfortable Chair (talk · contribs) 19:40, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

Hello. I will be reviewing this. — The Most Comfortable Chair 19:40, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

Lead

• I have changed "the last prima donna assoluta" to "a prima donna assoluta", here and in the body, because it is presumptuous of the future. Unless there are a lot of sources that refer to her with "the last".
• "In 2019, she portrayed Elizabeth I who leaves her throne,..." As I have mentioned below, this description is not required. If it is allegorical — and I suspect it is — the comparison should come from a specific reviewer. Otherwise, it is SYNTHESIS.

  Not my most vital concern, but the concept itself seems to have gone (comparable to empires), so therefore there's not much to expect. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:00, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Early life and education

• "As an anti-communist, her father survived a five-year prison sentence for treason." — This sentence should be mentioned in context of Gruberová's age.

  As you may know from the article history, there were many contributors, and I confess to be unfamiliar with the early life. Will have to read myself. --GA

• "Her father drank and she developed a close relationship with her mother." — Was the jail sentence a part of the reason why she developed a close relationship with her mother? If so, it could be merged with this.

  same --GA

• "the broadcaster" — Is there a specific name for the "broadcaster"?

  same --GA

• "Gruberová began her musical studies at the Bratislava Conservatory (Konzervatórium v Bratislave), where she was a student of Mária Medvecká." — Can the year be mentioned?

  same --GA

• "While studying,..." — To clarify, is this while she was studying at the VŠMU?

  yes, added --GA

• "She then continued..." — Mentioning specific years will be preferable if that information is available.

  will check --GA

• "Later she studied with Ruthilde Boesch in Vienna." — This can be removed from here, since it is better suited in "Opera" where it is described again and more elaborately.

  I think the hint is good, as where refinement would happen, but worded it for a future. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:08, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Career

• "In 1971, Gruberová decided to emigrate to the West." — Can a specific country name or region be used instead? Such as "Austria" or "Western Europe"?

  I may have a language problem. In German, for these people who during the Cold War where unhappy in "the East", went to "the West", and the specific country didn't matter much. --GA

"The West" can also mean North America or England, for instance. It would be more precise to point out exactly where, but if this is cultural, I suppose it is fine. — The Most Comfortable Chair 13:08, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Yes, but of course it was Austria, just an hour away (if at all), but at the time a BIG difference. Young readers may not be aware. Better wording welcome. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:36, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

There is a lot that I wish young readers were more aware of. — The Most Comfortable Chair 07:30, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

• "to sing the role in a new production in 1976" — Mention "a new production of _________ in 1976".

  I think, as it was just mentioned in the previous sentence, that would be a bit boring. --GA

• "and Böhm wished that the composer could have heard that performance." Feels slightly out of place. Maybe add a few more words as "and Böhm praised her saying that he wished the original composer could have heard that performance."

  that feels like explaining a joke, no? - The idea is to say somehow that he, sceptical first, changed his mind upon her delivery. Did you look into a video? --GA

• "In 1977, she first appeared at the Salzburg Festival, as Thibault in Verdi's Don Carlo, conducted by Herbert von Karajan. She appeared as Gilda in Jean-Pierre Ponnelle's 1982 film adaptation of Rigoletto, alongside Ingvar Wixell in the title role and Luciano Pavarotti as the Duke, and in his 1988 film of Mozart's Così fan tutte, alongside Delores Ziegler and Ferruccio Furlanetto." — A bit too long, and should be split.

  if you think so ... - I tried but think the two films should stay together, - we could drop a name or two of the colleagues. --GA

• "Other important roles include...and Massenet's Manon." — Were they all at one particular place? If they were, best to mention it. And either way, it is better to avoid using "other important". I will suggest using the bland "she also played the roles of..." or something similar.

  the source lists them all together, also, one of her characteristics is having sung all over the big houses, many roles at many places - the source being the GSL by Kutsch/Riemens of which I can see only the first page in the book, but it's quoted here --GA

• "She performed as Konstanze in Mozart's Die Entführung aus dem Serail, and Oscar in Verdi's Un ballo in maschera." — This sentence, and the one prior don't have an in-line citation, and they don't need one per se. Can you confirm that these facts are cited from some other source(s) in the article? Or provide an in-line citation?

  sure, sorry, same source (it got lost when the para was split to insert the image) --GA

• "as Lucia in 1990" — In which opera?

  Lucia di Lammermoor, as mentioned in the lead and the previous sentence --GA

• "The same year, she withdrew from all her performances at the Zürich Opera, after Alexander Pereira, then intendant, refused that her dancer daughter's injury, which ruined her career, was an occupational accident." — "which ruined her career" is still subjective. Perhaps use something like "The same year, she withdrew from all her performances at the Zürich Opera, after Alexander Pereira, then intendant, claimed that her dancer daughter's injury, which forced her to quit dancing, was not an occupational accident." I am assuming "which forced her to quit dancing", because I cannot verify this — the citation used is a dead link.

  wording taken, and it's a passage I found - I believe that many details like that are ultimately sourced to her autobiography, which will remain a bit subjective - will have to check for a better source --GA

• "The role became one of her signature roles;" — Which one, "Donna Anna" or "Elisabetta"?

  the last, but clarified even if a bit repetitive --GA

Copyedited. — The Most Comfortable Chair 13:08, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

• "she made peace with Regietheater in a dramatic portrayal of the Queen, without losing coloratura brilliance." — It is not clear to me as to what "she made peace with Regietheater" means. And "without losing coloratura brilliance" is not a neutral description.

  perhaps we need to to say somewhere (earlier) that she refused to work in productions when the thought it was more stage direction (Regie than singing that counted - the brilliance could be marked as a quote but the original is in German, and in such cases I'm never quite sure how to do it --GA

Gerda Arendt, can you share that specific quote in here? Maybe I can try to incorporate that in. — The Most Comfortable Chair 13:08, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

The journalist wrote "Mit dem Sänger-, dem Star-Theater war kein Staat mehr zu machen. Sie galt als Anachronismus, als Diva von gestern." which Deepl translates as "There was no longer any state to be made with the singer, the star theatre. She was considered an anachronism, a diva of yesterday.", and I'd say "The days of theatre relying on singer-stars were over. She was considered an anachronism, a diva of yesterday." (From the obit) She is quoted (in the article when she retired, same author), as saying about concert versions: "Hier spüre ich, dass die Zuschauer unseretwegen kommen, dass sie uns, die Sänger, hören wollen und dass wir nicht von der Regie als Requisiten behandelt werden. Werden Sie das schreiben? Auch wenn es keiner hören will?" (Here I feel that the audience comes for us, that they want to hear us, the singers, and that we are not treated as props by the direction. Will you write it? Even if no one wants to hear it?) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:54, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

• "She convincingly portrayed the aging Elizabeth I who leaves her throne, with still breathtaking singing." — Not a neutral description. Perhaps you can cite a specific reviewer's comments if you wish to elaborate on what her last performance was like. In either case, I am not sure why describing the character — "convincingly portrayed the aging Elizabeth I who leaves her throne" — is required here.

  same as last question - FAZ obituary which was the most "convincing" to me - I have to admit that I don't have access to NYT one - can you read that? - back to FAZ: the reviewer saw a Queen resigning - in the opera and the singer --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:58, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

The NYT article does not describe it as such. We could still keep this in, but it will need to be attributed to that source, in that we will have to write it out that FAZ made that allegorical connection. Something along the lines of "She gave her last opera performance on 27 March 2019 as Elisabetta in Roberto Devereux at the Bavarian State Opera. Jürgen Kesting, writing for the FAZ, allegorized her convincing portrayal of the aging Elizabeth I who leaves her throne, and drew parallels to her retiring." — The Most Comfortable Chair 13:08, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

This is Kesting's wording: "Doch dann beschenkte Edita Gruberová ihre Bewunderer mit einer auch darstellerisch grandiosen Finalszene, nach zwanzig Minuten mit atemberaubendem Gesang, der noch einmal den ganzen Glanz ihrer Jugend aufstrahlen ließ, abtretend wie die Königin: "Non regno ... Uscite. – Ich regiere nicht mehr. Geht." (But then Edita Gruberová gifted her admirers with a final scene that was also grandiose in terms of acting, after twenty minutes of breathtaking singing that once again allowed all the splendour of her youth to shine, departing like the queen: "Non regno ... Uscite. - I reign no more. Go!") - Would you give that as you wrote, or change some? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:58, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

• "Her last performance was in Gersthofen on 20 December 2019." — Can her role be mentioned?

  that was probably a concert --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:58, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Personal life

• "They divorced in 1983 and Klimo died by suicide soon afterwards." — Could indirectly imply an association. I will suggest that it be mentioned separately and with the year — "They divorced in 1983. Klimo died by suicide later that year/in YYYY." Also, the citation used here is no longer available.

  again personal matter, as early life - will see what I can do --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:00, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Awards

• Consider renaming it as "Honors" instead?

  it would have to be Honours, in a European context, and that's why I avoid it --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:01, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

References

• Reference 3 — "The" Washington Post.

  done --GA

• Reference 5; 34; 51; 52 — Needs additional parameters.

  5 AllMusic - what else would you want? I wonder why an archived version was used while have a "real" one, [2]

"Publisher" with "AllMusic", and "accessdate". — The Most Comfortable Chair 12:36, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

AllMusic would be work, and I can't access it, nor did I, someone else did and I don't know when. It's a stable site, not one that's likely to disappear ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:00, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

• generally: I added only few sources, and they are not formatted the same

  34: "Salzburg Festival Archive" added

  51: don't know what to do here, musiktheaterpreis.at wouldn't be much more informative, no?

  52: can't see that one at all, will have to look --GA

• Reference 7 — Use "Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung" (as used in Reference 20).

  would you spell out BBC? --GA

I understand. I asked that for consistency purposes. Use whichever you prefer, but be consistent throughout. — The Most Comfortable Chair 12:36, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

• Reference 9 and 36 use the same source.

  no, different dates, different authors --GA

Different dates (of the archive), but the same link, same date and same content. Also, the same author. Please see its archived source. — The Most Comfortable Chair 12:36, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

I am less interested in consistency, but would introduce with full name the first time, then use the abbr. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:02, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

• Reference 21 — Don't have to mention "glyndebourne.com" as work, if the publisher has the same name.

  Glyndebourne is only the location, - website replaced by organization --GA

• Reference 26; 27 — WP:IMBD should not be used as a reference.

  sigh, I'll search (I'll never understand why we are so suspicious about published films and published recordings) --GA

• Reference 39 — "Rondo" instead of "www.rondomagazin.de".

  not sure, we'd loose that it's a magazine, - Rondo has so many meanings --GA

My apologies for the delay, Gerda Arendt. The article is comprehensive and well-written — it will pass. — The Most Comfortable Chair 06:58, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

all fine, just that now you may need patience because I'm quite busy these days - thank you for the thorough review! Grimes2, can you perhaps help with referencing aspects (just above)? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:28, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

That is all right, there is no time limit, Gerda Arendt. Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to you, by the way! — The Most Comfortable Chair 16:32, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Thank you, - today I worked almost all day on a conductor who died and had a stub of an article, grrr. Christmas will begin tomorrow ;) - Best wishes, and keep watching (the top of) my talk for my three to four "cards", music three times, theatre the fourth. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:10, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

Final

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

1. Is it well written?

   A. The prose is clear and concise, and the spelling and grammar are correct:

   B. It complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation:

2. Is it verifiable with no original research?

   A. It contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline:

   B. All in-line citations are from reliable sources, including those for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons—science-based articles should follow the scientific citation guidelines:

   C. It contains no original research:

   D. It contains no copyright violations nor plagiarism:

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. It addresses the main aspects of the topic:

   B. It stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style):

4. Is it neutral?

   It represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each:

5. Is it stable?

   It does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute:

6. Is it illustrated, if possible, by images?

   A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content:

   B. Images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

   The article explores details and events of her life in a concise and informative manner. It meets the criteria. Thank you for your fine work on one more music related article, Gerda Arendt. And to Grimes2 for their work on the article. — The Most Comfortable Chair 07:30, 31 December 2021 (UTC)